The Up-Coming Queens County Republican Party Officer Elections
Elections are vital and fundamental to societies of the self-governed. The election process - whether it be for President, Governor or County Chair - should be, must be free, fair and transparent.
Regrettably, the election process here in Queens County for County Chair has deteriorated in the past to a point where it is convoluted and shrouded in complicated algorithms. Nowhere in America are citizen-voters counted today on a four-fifths, three-quarters or one-half basis. If the Bush doctrine of free, fair and transparent elections are good for Iraq, certainly they should be good for Republicans in Queens County to choose their leader...
Led it be said, also, that our Republican Party's election process here in Queens County has been inherited by the current County Chair and this post in no way blames nor condemns current leadership. This post only seeks to restore the fruitful and earnest democratic process.
Some of the past issues currently raised concerning the County Chair and other Officer Elections
1: The short notice given to candidates to the date of the election .
2: The return and control of said proxies by State Committee Persons.
3: The proxies signature verification process .
4: The recently adopted weighted vote for State Committee persons vs. County Committee.
5: The election meeting itself. (Some ended approximately Three in the morning)
Some proposed examples for a more open election process
1: A election date to be set months in advance.
2: A single proxies should list the candidates wishing to run for said office. Mailed at County expense.
3: State committee members removed from process of collection and proxies mailed to selected candidate.
4: Proxies some proposals 1: Either require notary to co-sign. 2: Candidate to get state assembly signature. 3: or both 4: both candidates or their representatives to review and challenge signatures, final decision going to a selected judge approved by candidates.
5: Weighted vote does this serve the process ? As most County Committee persons are influenced by their State Committee members anyway, it appears to be a positive for a weighted vote. The negative is in diminishing county committee persons to the roll nothing more than of a petition gather. One suggestion is that county committee persons attending in person rather than by proxies, get the same weighted vote as state assembly persons.
6: In order to convene an orderly and timely meeting all proxies are pre-certified prior to meeting. Candidates to be given a timed allowance to address the voters in attendance and then a voiced roll call to be recorded for actual vote.
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written by Jay Golub , September 28, 2009
I think your rule changes are interesting, Tom. Thanks for proposing them here. I'd like to add just one more.
7. No one should be allowed to vote as or become a State Committee-person if they LIE to the voters of their district to win the position.
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written by Daniel Peterson , September 28, 2009
ha. cute. It seems that the queens county organization needs to havea bylaws convention and keep the convention process open.
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written by Jay Golub , September 28, 2009
I don't think so, Danny.
The Queens County organization doesn't really need a new set of bylaws because, in the end, the group in power always crafts the rules so that they can STAY in power. If new people were to come in, which will not happen in this particular case, they will do the same.
But as far as I know, contrary to my point above, these rules have been in place for many years and, I may be wrong as I wasn't there when they were created, but I believe that the existing rules in Queens were crafted mostly by people who aren't in power now and a man on the side of the so-called "challengers," Tom Ognibene, was one of the major crafters of the existing rules.
I agree with any "reform" that increases the Democratic Process in any election, but for Tom to compare the Queens GOP's voting process to Iraqi elections is goofy at best and it doesn't surprise me that Tom is looking to have equal votes for county committee positions as State Committee positions - as his buddies the Haggerty's have more of those on their side than the existing organization.
Nice try, Tom, but there is no logic in making a district leader have the same weighted vote as a county committee-member as one represents an entire Assembly District and the latter only represents a single election district within that Assembly district...
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written by Tom Lynch , September 28, 2009
First before you guys rip me up. I only proposed that some changes should take place. The past two elections when Serf Maltese was county chair left many in attendance scratching their heads wondering what took place, in the way some votes were cast from Assembly Leaders and other votes that were thrown out. The last minute weighted vote count introduced at two in the morning, should have been announced prior to or even weeks prior. The county committee members on either candidates side, left feeling that is not the way an election should be run. In my opinion any county committee person who is empowered to go to the county meeting deserves the one person, one vote rule.
That might be a way in which we can grow the party, rather than from county committee persons who do nothing but hold a title for their Assembly Leaders. Showing up once every two years to vote in person, isn’t asking much and an their equal vote sounds right to me. So any suggestions that can be adopted in streaming lining the County election process would be helpful. So those members who show up to cast a vote in person and happen to have a job to attend the next day can enter at 8PM and leave by 11PM.
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written by Robert Hornak , September 28, 2009
No one is ripping you up Tom. You just have some of your facts mixed up it seems.
First, having elections according to a weighted scoring system is mandated by state election law. Every vote is not equal in NY. Each county is allowed some leeway in making its exact rules and the rules for the Queens GOP have been in use for some time.
Changing them is not as simple as just saying we want new rules. To be done legally, bylaws are adopted by the committee every two years after the vote for Chairman. So the rules we have will be in effect for this years reorganization, regardless of who might like to change them.
However that does not mean there can't be reasonable rules that would expedite the process such as having a time some hours prior to the meeting for all proxies to be submitted, so they may be validated without keeping the committee waiting around while this is done. I have requested just such a process be established for this year. I believe it was received favorably.
As for the rest of the process, there are universal methods that are used for both political organizations and corporations. There will be a credentials committee appointed by the County to look at all proxies, equally and fairly.
State Committee people have a higher weighted vote than county committee people as they represent a larger portion of the electorate. Those are the rules. There is nothing unfair about that and is why the unscrupulous haggerty brothers have spent so much time contesting for these state committee positions. They seemed to have no problem with that method when they thought they were going to win more of those seats. Complaining now this far along in the process just because the primary outcome doesn't favor them is very disingenuous, but typical for the haggerty's.
Few can argue that Ragusa has not done a good job in these last 2 years and he surely deserves another term as Chairman if he so desires. His leadership has helped to grow the Queens GOP and has also brought many previously disaffected factions together. There seems to be just one remaining that is incapable to working with everyone else, and that is the haggerty faction. They are a cancer on the Queens GOP and will be its downfall should they ever gain any real power.
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written by chancehaywood , September 28, 2009
Tom
The worst, and I do mean the worst aspect, of selecting new county leadership is that date for doing so is always within weeks of the party elections. If I were to change any aspect of this it would be that these elections happen right after the General Election. And Frankly I think that might be too early.
Also I personally don't think State Committee people should be given any additional weight in the process. It should be who ever can get the most County Committee members to support them. Plain and simple.
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written by Tom Lynch , September 28, 2009
Robert, just to set the record strait, correct me if I'm wrong but back in 2005 the county elections were held without a weighted vote.
Then when Senator Serf Maltese thought the vote of county committee might be to close, the weighted vote was brought out, leaving many surprised as in the prior election it wasn’t used. So now we have the weighted vote, am I correct or will that be changed during the meeting?
Last time around I caste my 1/2 or what ever it was worth for our current chairman. But this time around all I can say is if the weighted vote is the rule of law for this election, I for one will not waste my time to vote in person and in doing so will give my proxy to my Assembly Leader who will vote her conscience not mine.
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written by Robert Hornak , September 28, 2009
Tom, I was not there in 2005 so I do not know what happened. What I do know is what the state election law says. It calls for a weighted vote.
Tomorrow we are electing a new state chairman and that will also be done by a weighted vote. Do you object to that as well? If so you should consider talking to your local elected officials as they are the ones who write the laws.
I would hope that you will come to the meeting regardless, but if not you are always free to give your proxy to the Chairman. That way you are assured your vote will be given to the person most deserving of it.
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written by Tom Lynch , September 29, 2009
I was just informed today the Sept. 29th that the Queens County Republican meeting in which elections are to take place is scheduled for this Saturday Oct.3rd starting at 3PM. So I must congratulate the current officers as surly one will not be there till the wee hours of the morning.
Hopefully two years from now Queens County can also give county committee members more advance notice. I received a call from someone other than a county official advising me of the meeting, but as of today no mail , email or other notice of said meeting from county. So if I receive a proxy filled out indorsing the current leaders in the mail by tomorrow Sept 30th by 3PM it gives me 72 hours advance notice of said meeting. Why? My guess is to avoid competition.
Some things never change.
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written by Robert Hornak , September 29, 2009
Tom, you are a friend but I am really sick and tired of this attitude you have toward the County leadership. You bitch and moan and complain without ever a positive word about the great changes that have been made in the last few years.
As well you never seem to have a bad word to say about the sleeziods that have been using every means possible, including lying, cheating, bullying, threats, and forgery to try to undermine the current leadership.
What's the deal with that? Are you for real?
And never mind that we had ridiculous primaries to run this summer, distracting everyone from the campaigns that really matter for city council and borough president.
Why, because some people in this county are selfish and only interested in their own power and position and are unable to work with the others in this borough.
You think anyone had time to think about planning the reorg meeting before the 15th? Plus we had an executive committee meeting this past week as well. How do you think all this work gets done and the hundreds and thousands of letters get printed and mailed out?
I have to say it is very arrogant of you to sit by and complain that notices went out and only gave 4 days notice. 72 hours is the legal requirement. The county volunteers worked very hard to get the letters out. Next time I will let you know when the work is being done so you can come help out and get the work done faster. But if you guys don't really want to participate then please don't sit by and complain.
As Jack Nicholson said in A Few Good Men, "Just say thank you and go on your way. Otherwise, pick up a rifle and stand a post."
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written by Tom Lynch , September 30, 2009
Robert,my point has always been, it's not about the leadership,it's about the system but you seam to think a challange to the system is a challange it's leaders.
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written by Robert Hornak , September 30, 2009
Tom there are constructive ways to challenge the system. I do it all the time. You have given the appearance of making it personal against the leadership, while never giving credit for the good things done and giving the opposition a 100% pass while they lie, cheat and steal. How about a little balance?
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written by Tom Lynch , October 01, 2009
My post from day one has only been about the Queens County election system and had nothing to do with its current officers, again I commend the current offices which have addressed the proxies verification process that will make for a more streamlined meeting.
Hopefully in the future the other issues can be remedied.
It appears that the incumbent has an unfair advantage. The current County officer who sets the date for the meeting this gives him the extra time and surely an advantage, he/she gets to prepare in advance, the printing of proxies endorsing themselves as they alone know the meeting date. This advantage of time allows them to prepare a mailing to all County State Assembly members and County Committee members who will in most cases return said proxies, not even knowing there might be another candidate for said office.
Any candidate that wishes to run against the incumbent office holder gets notified approximately three days in advance of said meeting. Which is currently legal under current by laws, but how can a candidate who wishes to run a challenge be expected in the three days time to get the proxies printed with the correct date and mailed to a close to a thousand persons and expect a return mailing of proxies in the three days after being notified of meeting date? Why can't the date be pre announced weeks in advance or at the least revealed at the same time County sets the date and forwarded to all thru email or telephone?
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written by Robert Hornak , October 01, 2009
Tom, you are in a fantasy land. The way it is done is the only way it can be done. Everyone is at the same disadvantage in this process.
Everyone knows there is a meeting coming up around this time, so it's not like they pick a date out of left field. IF there is opposition, they have the same ability to mail committee members asking for support at the meeting, to be announced.
They can amass their support and in advance and just have to collect their proxies, same as the people that support the current leadership. The advantage you allege is imagined.
If there are any advantages to being the incumbent, they are matched by the responsibility of being same. The requirement to mail out letters to the entire committee in a timely manor. The need to arrange for the meeting location. Meeting all the legal requirements. It is no small task.
Yet you insist on finding fault with the process, and thereby implicitly condemning the leadership. If only you really knew. But I have a strong feeling this is all just an excuse for something more, that you are stirring the pot for some other purpose.
I hope I am wrong, but when the best compliment you can make for the current leadership is "I commend the current offices which have addressed the proxies verification process that will make for a more streamlined meeting" I can't help but feel that is woefully inadequate.
Couple that with your absolute inability to condemn the assumed opposition for their underhanded tactics these past few months, and I wonder what the real agenda here is. If you are trying to make a case for leadership change just come out and say so.
But I would find it very odd that you would base that on nothing more than your objections to the rules governing the reorg meeting. Certainly it can't be on issues, as nobody has alleged that current leadership has stood for anything inconsistent with Republican principles, or that any potential challengers have better ideas.
Or that any potential challengers would have a more inclusive administration, as we have seen what some do with a little power (which we now can attest to being a dangerous thing). Current leadership has done everything possible to reach out and bring people together. Only the truly intransigent remain on the outside.
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written by Tom Lynch , October 02, 2009
Again if County mails proxies with date of meeting and any candidate wishing to run (suppose I wished to run ) I would have three days after receiving proxies as my first knowledge of meeting date. From that time as stated before I would have to print / mail and hope for return mail of proxies with in three days. So the few days that it takes to put together that first mailing and mail is the advantage. As far as your consent criticizing that I am against the current leadership it appears that any challenge by anyone would be met with your hostility.
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written by Jay Golub , October 02, 2009
Tom, at the same time as you are decrying "the process," you are supporting a gaggle of people to become the leaders of the Queens GOP who have been caught lying and cheating their way into contention.
As long you can't find it in yourself to be even handed at all, your points become undermined completely.
Besides, in the end, the people you support have demonstrated their complete disregard for the law that already exists. What would be the difference if the laws were changed or the process "reformed" when the people you support, if they were to win, would just ignore the new rules anyway?
You and I have disagreed on policy items and issues before. I enjoyed that conversation and respected your right to express those views. Your support of our liberal Mayor is most notable on that list.
But for you to place this post, aim your "concern" solely at the existing leadership and claim to be just looking to fix a broken system makes you look like nothing more than a shill. You should be embarrassed...
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written by Tom Lynch , October 02, 2009
Robert and Jay, as you spin with your vocabulary anyone who would suggest that the election process could be more open to fairness, as being against the current leadership. I’m done with that argument. No this if I had attended in person, like last election most likely would have voted for the current chair, but instead your spin as current party officials and with no answer to my question. Is the day or two or three an advantage or not. Because this coming election is using the weighted vote (legally ) but only applied recently when the past elections appeared close on the past equal vote system.
It appears to be of little use to be present as a county committee member is only 1/2 of a vote, unless one wishes to smooze. So unlike the rest of the heard who returns proxies some not even aware there might be a challenge to the current leadership , I will give my proxies to my Assembly Leaders and let them decide whom they think is best to lead our party and spend Saturday with my family.
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written by Jay Golub , October 02, 2009
For what it's worth, Tom. I think that notice should be served well before the meeting.
In almost every way, it doesn't change the outcome of the election...
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written by Jay Golub , October 02, 2009
"I will give my proxies to my Assembly Leaders and let them decide whom they think is best to lead our party and spend Saturday with my family."
Now THAT'S the kind of leadership we're looking for! No wonder you support Bloomberg funded Haggerty ticket...
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written by Robert Hornak , October 03, 2009
"As far as your consent criticizing that I am against the current leadership it appears that any challenge by anyone would be met with your hostility."
Tom you are the one dishing out the hostility toward the County leaders. Your constant complaints are being met with questions about why you have such strong complaints against the Leadership but none with the assumed competition.
The advantage you assert again is imagined. As I stated before, everyone knows approx when the meeting is going to be, and I know certain people were circulating proxies well before the County announcement went out. So the idea that people only have 3 days is a fiction.
And the opposition actually has the advantage because they have no mandate to mail the entire county. They can cherry pick their supporters. The County has to wait until after the primary elections are decided so they know who to mail to.
You call my comments spin while I attempt to make reasonable explanations for why things are done the way they are done. You ignore those statements and also ignore the questions I ask.
But just answer me one, how can you complain about what County does and not a peep about the sleazy tactics of the Haggertys, Ulrich and Ognibene?
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